Reality

Some of us think far more than we should
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Kulaf
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Re: Reality

Post by Kulaf » Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:05 am

Sorry to expand our discussion to another thread.....but I had to comment on your mafia joke. 8)

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Re: Reality

Post by Select » Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:22 pm

Jaro - It's easy if you do your research. This isn't ~Select mind reading time~ This is a political leaning, and there's a fair deal of information out there. Google could be a start. I'm assessing how much you (and the others) actually know on the subject and how much you care to know. So far the answer to both is "very little". If I'm going to put effort into this discussion, it's not going to be with people who half-ass it. It's not like it takes much effort to repeat myself for five pages, especially when I'm laughing at Saevrok and his ~*~army buddies~*~ in the process. :D

Kulaf - I'm going to go with that you haven't done any (much) reading on this belief since you're not doing a good job of picking apart the logic. The entire why and how IS the argument and the logic behind it.

And on the mafia comment I made, np - it was easy to flip around into reality. ;)
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Re: Reality

Post by Jarochai Alabaster » Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:54 pm

And my point is that while yes, I've done my research (I've been taking multicultural classes in college too! Yuk yuk), I still don't buy the assertion that race jokes contribute to racial inequality any more than I buy the assertion that "when members of the upper classes look down upon members of the lower classes it's because of their superior majority group mentality, while when members of the lower classes look down upon members of the upper class, it's exclusively because of the oppression of the upper classes on the lower." Yes, this was an assertion presented by my textbook, and supported by my professor.

I'm sorry, but all my personal experiences have taught me to believe contrarily to the assertion you're making here. Take me as a prime example. I am a member of a minority group. In my group, I am the only fag. I live with a married couple who have a one-year-old. For as long as I can remember, people have made jokes and poked fun, as people do with one another. Ever since high school when I came out. Our fat friends get called fat. I get called fag. Mexican Mike that I dated because he had the same name I did got poked fun at for being Mexican (He even called me a "bean queen" once for commenting on another latino guy I found attractive). Our Chinese friend (Who's name also happens to be Mike) gets called Red Mike.

I was raised SDA (A minority group among Christian denominations in the US, and one that is often regarded as being more cult-like than the others, though the SDA churches I've gone to have no cult characteristics that I ever saw). When I was young, my mom decided to switch churches because she percieved many of the people in ours to be snobbish. We wound up going to a dominantly black church for several years. My mom and I were two of exactly three white people in the church, and while I was young I only recall once when one of the other kids made any kind of comment on my race. It was more out of curiousity than anything else, and I don't even recall what was asked.

My point is, with what you've been saying in this thread I am inherently racist, sexist, bigoted, blah blah blah. And I'm saying it's a load of crap. If you're going to assert that making jokes based on minority group status in itself proves that someone is inherently bigoted, you had damn well better be able to prove it.

So I'm waiting. Call out my racist, sexist, bigoted evil characteristics. Prove to me that I view someone of differing race or class or gender with less than equality. Obviously, someone who is bigoted is likely to make such jokes, but that doesn't prove that all people with such a broad sense of humor are. You're making the very blanket statements you're condemning as bigotry, and they're just as fallible as stereotypes regarding minority group status.
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Re: Reality

Post by Kulaf » Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:19 pm

Select wrote:Kulaf - I'm going to go with that you haven't done any (much) reading on this belief since you're not doing a good job of picking apart the logic. The entire why and how IS the argument and the logic behind it.

And on the mafia comment I made, np - it was easy to flip around into reality. ;)
You presented a hypothesis with no supporting data.......or even a supporting arguement. You can speculate all you want on the depth of my understanding of the issue it is imaterial to the fact that you have not presented one coherant though to support your generalization.......and it is a generalization or it would apply to ALL racial jokes.

The ball is in your court......and hasn't left since you made your generalization.

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Re: Reality

Post by Jarochai Alabaster » Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:49 pm

I felt the need to expand a bit, and make a counter point.

Racial jokes are of no consequence to me, but consider the range of my humor. I can appreciate retard jokes, dead baby jokes, jokes about people Darwinning themselves, rape jokes, murder jokes, child molester jokes, holocaust jokes...I really can't think of a category that I couldn't find some humor in. Are you really going to tell me that jokes based on something as absurd as skin tone is of more consequence to me here?

Quite frankly I agree that there are still inequalities. I just hold both sides accountable. It is illegal to discriminate based on most of these criteria, and the mechanisms are in place to protect employees, job seekers and loan seekers. Often these mechanisms go unused, I've seen that personally. I've also seen some real assholes - and I mean the kind of people who couldn't help picking fights - blame everyone else's racism on all their problems. "You don't like me because I'm black!" "No, I don't like you because you punched me in the face." It is the responsibility of someone who is actually being hindered to call it to attention to the proper authorities. It is also the responsibility of the violent douche to take some fucking anger management classes.
On the majority group's end, our responsibility socially and professionally is also just as clear. It is our responsibility to call out our peers on instances of genuine and clear inequalities. If you see your boss giving your gay or black or Jewish coworker shit for being gay or black or Jewish or just giving him extra shit for no percieveable reason, approach your coworker and let him know you'll be a witness to a complaint if he chooses to file one. If your friend constantly makes racist remarks - not just jokes with a punchline, comments like "why the fuck do they all smell so bad?" or "I fucking hate niggers" - call him out as a douche and tear down his argument if he bothers to present one.

Honestly, I think for the most part we're doing better. Attitudes are changing, and will always continue to evolve. Putting pressure on the people who actually discriminate is part of what's been driving it, and will continue to do so. Things are going in the right direction, but I think we've proven that the majority of the nation is over the "race" thing.
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Re: Reality

Post by Select » Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:10 pm

I'm tossing it back into yours, Kulaf. If you care, research this viewpoint and you'll understand my summary. Of course it's very general, I summarized as basically as I could the idea behind the movement. If you won't, then this ends here and I go back to associating with and debating with people who have read up on it.

I hope you're looking far beyond your classes, Jaro. I've found they're too basic (because it's not like we're majoring in the subject), word things strangely and sometimes not clearly enough to support the point they're trying to make. In your classes, have you covered the concept of privilege?
but I think we've proven that the majority of the nation is over the "race" thing.
I completely disagree.
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Re: Reality

Post by Mukik » Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:31 pm

Then back it up with why you dont , cupcake.

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Re: Reality

Post by Kulaf » Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:14 pm

Select wrote:I'm assessing how much you (and the others) actually know on the subject and how much you care to know. So far the answer to both is "very little". If I'm going to put effort into this discussion, it's not going to be with people who half-ass it.
You know the person has lost the debate when they resort to the old....."I'm just trying to find out how much you know" line of BS. Seriously you are making yourself look foolish when all you had to do is step back from the assertion that all comedy about race is seeded in a deeply rooted bias. I wish Tim was here to take you to the woodshed because I honestly don't have the time nor the inclination to do so. If you want to continue looking foolish though, I won't stop you.

Rail away.

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Re: Reality

Post by Select » Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:21 pm

I honestly don't have the time nor the inclination to do so.
There is also an "internet rule" that if you claim to not have the time to argue after posting so much, then you've lost the debate as well. Woo, based on "internet rules" we all have lost!

In regards to foolishness, I think the same about you. I think you likely engage in a lot of prejudice in your life and don't realize it because you haven't taken the time to explore beyond your box and concept of what's racist to you.
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Re: Reality

Post by Kulaf » Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:27 pm

Select wrote:
I honestly don't have the time nor the inclination to do so.
There is also an "internet rule" that if you claim to not have the time to argue after posting so much, then you've lost the debate as well. Woo, based on "internet rules" we all have lost!

In regards to foolishness, I think the same about you. I think you likely engage in a lot of prejudice in your life and don't realize it because you haven't taken the time to explore beyond your box and concept of what's racist to you.
And now that you have lost by not even putting forth your initial arguement you will attack me and anyone else who challenges your retreat from your absurd notion. My only posts have been to try to get you to even put forth an arguement......as well as every other poster who bothered to indulge your absurd notion.

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Re: Reality

Post by Select » Sun Sep 20, 2009 2:39 am

you will attack me
Haha, I'm making fun of the ridiculousness of choosing a loser based on silly "internet rules." I made fun of it because it's easy to pick those rules out of thin internet-air and apply them to anyone. Hence, we all lose. You missed that one.

I've tried to get you to do your own research. If you can't make the effort, you don't care enough, and you aren't worth debating the subject with. This is a topic where caring and information seeking is very important. I'm pushing the discussion a little further with Jaro because he seems to have taken some effort, although he still seems to lack information (waiting for his clarification). Perhaps I have more respect for him as a poster - Either way, this isn't going anywhere with you, Kulaf.
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Re: Reality

Post by Jarochai Alabaster » Sun Sep 20, 2009 3:05 am

Clarification for what? I'm still waiting for a justification for the claim that I must be inherently bigoted/racist/sexist to laugh at or make jokes that rely on these same categories, as well as an explaination for how they negatively impact society overall. My assertion is that there's more important shit to concern ourselves with, such as cases of actual discrimination, and I would hope you agree with that. It is also my opinion and my experience that these cases are most certainly not in the majority, and most people don't discriminate on these grounds. Why do you feel that most of the people in the US have not moved past the race issue?

So...am I a bigot? Remember Xythe? He's mine and was Gwildor's best friend. The three of us lived under one roof for several years. Xythe and I live under the same roof now. He, to this day, twists as much of our interactions as possible into one big gay joke. Is he homophobic simply because he targets my sexuality for jokes?
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Re: Reality

Post by Select » Sun Sep 20, 2009 3:53 am

My assertion is that there's more important shit to concern ourselves with, such as cases of actual discrimination, and I would hope you agree with that
Why can't we keep in mind all of it?
It is also my opinion and my experience that these cases are most certainly not in the majority, and most people don't discriminate on these grounds
Pick up a couple of papers. Look at studies. There are still too many racial discrimination claims for us to be in a post-racial country. Discrimination is still prevalent amongst those people and institutions who have enough power/influence to affect advancement and equality. This applies to other forms of prejudice. Are we stagnant as a society? Not at all. Have we moved forward enough as a society to claim we're beyond discrimination? Not yet.
He, to this day, twists as much of our interactions as possible into one big gay joke. Is he homophobic simply because he targets my sexuality for jokes?
From how you're describing him, I'd say that some piece of him naively is - Even if you feel these comments don't hurt you, said around other people he does not have as close and accepting a relationship with, will negatively impact them. He isn't a perfect angel, much like myself. Just because I try to avoid these jokes, does not mean that I don't do other things which have a negative impact - most of which I've been unaware of. The point of education is to realize that you naively do things to harm others, things which are very easy to avoid/eliminate from your day to day encounters.

I'll ask you again. Have you covered the concept of privilege in your classes? Are you reading and trying to learn beyond your classes?
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Re: Reality

Post by Mukik » Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:17 am

Youre a naive child,
most of what you claim has any substantial merit to it, wheres the beef? examples? (oppressed person vs whatever establishment won judgement inserted here) kinda substance. Otherwise youre peddling the same bullshit the fear mongers are at the town meetings. My uncle used to do norwegian jokes all the time, yet he was married to one. The biggest against blacks racist I ever met was a mixed girl I was engaged to, she dropped the N bomb more than anyone I knew. How do you know when a white group is going to tell a racist joke? they look around.

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Re: Reality

Post by Embar Angylwrath » Sun Sep 20, 2009 2:24 pm

So Select...

Is a racial joke made by a black person about another black person coming from a deep-seated bias of that black person against his own racial ethnicity? Is a black comedian who makes jokes about black people just another black-hater?
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: Reality

Post by Select » Sun Sep 20, 2009 2:45 pm

I covered that already, Embar.
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Re: Reality

Post by Embar Angylwrath » Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:42 pm

Select wrote:I covered that already, Embar.
Where... I don't see it.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: Reality

Post by Kulaf » Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:44 pm

Select wrote:I covered that already, Embar.
Yeah by saying you were against it. Sorry but that doesn't answer the question. You made a broad generalization and rather than sanely stepping back and clarifying yourself you continue to try to defend the indefensible.

What about racial satire? Where ethnic jokes are used to highlight the stupidity of the person saying the jokes? Hell I linked to All in the Family which is a well known show highlighting the bigotry of Archie.

A little humility on your part would pretty much end this.

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Re: Reality

Post by Embar Angylwrath » Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:23 pm

Let me be more direct, Select, simple yes or no answers...

Is Chris Rock a racist?

What about Richard Prior?

Whoopi Goldberg?

Cheech and Chong?

All of them are well know for poking fun at people from their own ethnic background.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: Reality

Post by Select » Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:26 pm

I found it
I recognize that there is a significant power difference between a minority insulting the majority and the majority insulting the minority. Just like a minority making fun of themselves doesn't have the same social impact as the majority or other minorities jumping in. So while I dislike all of it, I am more vocal when it's against the minority because I recognize the much greater social damage. So yea, Chris Rock insulting blacks has a way different impact and implications than white lady or Latino dude doing it.
To answer you, they are prejudice, not racist. Racism in this belief = prejudice + power.
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